<div dir="ltr"><div><div><div>Mike,<br><br></div>We are on the same page for sure. IPtrading and other companies are part of the legal IPv4 trade market, the market agreed with several RIRs. No one is putting that to question.<br><br></div>Carlos and the list are discussing up to what extent the RIRs have to make more policies to regulate that market to prevent the rise of a black market that can be exploited by criminals, etc. comparing it to the Prohibition in the US.<br><br></div>Tomás<br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">2016-06-17 10:45 GMT-04:00 Carlos M. Martinez <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:carlosm3011@gmail.com" target="_blank">carlosm3011@gmail.com</a>></span>:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word">Mike,<div><br></div><div>We need transfer policies so transfers can be policy compliant. We are, I believe, in the same page. Perhaps Google translate played a bad trick here, but we are saying mostly the same thing.</div><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><div><br></div><div>-Carlos</div></font></span><div><div class="h5"><div><br><div><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Jun 17, 2016, at 11:31 AM, Mike Burns <<a href="mailto:mike@iptrading.com" target="_blank">mike@iptrading.com</a>> wrote:</div><br><div><div style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Hello,<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">I object to the term black market being applied to legal and policy compliant transfers, and these make up the vast bulk of transfers.<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">We have completed hundreds of successful transfers for companies on every continent and I assure you they would object to being described as black market participants.<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Maybe I mis-translated, if so I am sorry.<span> </span><u></u><u></u></span></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Please call it a market, not a black market.<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Regards,<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Mike<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span> </span>LACNOG [<a href="mailto:lacnog-bounces@lacnic.net" target="_blank">mailto:lacnog-bounces@lacnic.net</a>]<span> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span> </span></b>Tomas Lynch<br><b>Sent:</b><span> </span>Friday, June 17, 2016 9:52 AM<br><b>To:</b><span> </span>Latin America and Caribbean Region Network Operators Group <<a href="mailto:lacnog@lacnic.net" target="_blank">lacnog@lacnic.net</a>><br><b>Subject:</b><span> </span>Re: [lacnog] riesgos de las transferencias<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><u></u> <u></u></div><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 12pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Carlos,<br><br>Disiento contigo al compararlo a la Ley Seca. No se pueden disparar los precios de los prefijos IPv4 o armar una "guerra" por ellos donde los RIRs tengan que imponer políticas extremas como el caso que mencionas. Acepto que exista un mercado negro de prefijos IPv4 pero, creo, que está acotado por costos (cajas NAT y NAT y NAT ...) y porque existe una solución que es IPv6. En la Ley Seca la solución que existía era completamente ilegal según la misma Ley Seca y no había otra alternativa: andá a convencer a los Kennedy que la cerveza sin alcohol es lo mismo ;)<u></u><u></u></p></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 12pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Como hemos discutido muchas veces, el tema de implementación de IPv6 es también un tema económico. Si un /24 y sus correspondientes NATs le cuesta al CFO más dinero que implementar el /56 que le asigna alegremente el RIR, entonces desaparece de a poco el mercado negro.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 12pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Yo dejaría que el "capitalismo salvaje" se encargue del mercado negro de IPv4.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Tomás<u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><u></u> <u></u></div></div></div><div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><u></u> <u></u></div><div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">2016-06-17 8:57 GMT-04:00 Carlos M. Martinez <<a href="mailto:carlosm3011@gmail.com" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">carlosm3011@gmail.com</a>>:<u></u><u></u></div><blockquote style="border-style:none none none solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in" type="cite"><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif">Comparto que es un muy interesante artículo.<br><br>Razón más por la cual tenemos que seguir analizando las políticas de transferencias. Cuanto mas lugares y espacios demos para la creación de mercados negros, peor va a ser. Esos<br><br>Basta ver el desastre que es la famosa ‘guerra a las drogas’, o lo que fue en su momento la ley seca en Estados Unidos.<br><br>s2<br><span style="color:rgb(136,136,136)"><br><span>Carlos</span></span><u></u><u></u></div><div><div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><br><br>> On Jun 17, 2016, at 9:49 AM, Ricardo Patara <<a href="mailto:patara@registro.br" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">patara@registro.br</a>> wrote:<br>><br>><br>> "Crims set up fake companies to hoard and sell IPv4 addresses"<br>><br>><span> </span><a href="http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/06/16/ipv4_hijacking/" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/06/16/ipv4_hijacking/</a><br>><br>> Muy buen articulo con base en la presentación de Leslie Nobile de ARIN en la última NANOG:<br>><br>><span> </span><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7FGChQNUtA" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7FGChQNUtA</a><br>><br>> Como ya comentado diversas veces, se está a crear un valor a los IPs que no es correcto.<br>><br>> La explotadores, que existen en todos sectores, ya están a ver ahí una forma de hacer dinero.<br>><br>> Más trabajo (desnecesario) para los RIRs que ahora salen a investigar empresas criminosas :(<br>><br>> Saludos<br>><br>> --<br>> Ricardo Patara<br>> _______________________________________________<br>> LACNOG mailing list<br>><span> </span><a href="mailto:LACNOG@lacnic.net" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">LACNOG@lacnic.net</a><br>><span> </span><a href="https://mail.lacnic.net/mailman/listinfo/lacnog" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">https://mail.lacnic.net/mailman/listinfo/lacnog</a><br>> Cancelar suscripcion:<span> </span><a href="https://mail.lacnic.net/mailman/options/lacnog" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">https://mail.lacnic.net/mailman/options/lacnog</a><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>LACNOG mailing list<br><a href="mailto:LACNOG@lacnic.net" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">LACNOG@lacnic.net</a><br><a href="https://mail.lacnic.net/mailman/listinfo/lacnog" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">https://mail.lacnic.net/mailman/listinfo/lacnog</a><br>Cancelar suscripcion:<span> </span><a href="https://mail.lacnic.net/mailman/options/lacnog" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">https://mail.lacnic.net/mailman/options/lacnog</a><u></u><u></u></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"><u></u> <u></u></div></div></div><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">_______________________________________________</span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">LACNOG mailing list</span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important"><a href="mailto:LACNOG@lacnic.net" target="_blank">LACNOG@lacnic.net</a></span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important"><a href="https://mail.lacnic.net/mailman/listinfo/lacnog" target="_blank">https://mail.lacnic.net/mailman/listinfo/lacnog</a></span><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">Cancelar suscripcion: <a href="https://mail.lacnic.net/mailman/options/lacnog" target="_blank">https://mail.lacnic.net/mailman/options/lacnog</a></span></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>
LACNOG mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:LACNOG@lacnic.net">LACNOG@lacnic.net</a><br>
<a href="https://mail.lacnic.net/mailman/listinfo/lacnog" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://mail.lacnic.net/mailman/listinfo/lacnog</a><br>
Cancelar suscripcion: <a href="https://mail.lacnic.net/mailman/options/lacnog" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://mail.lacnic.net/mailman/options/lacnog</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>