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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Thanks Tomas.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Yes now I understand and can add that in my experience the black market is largely the domain of spammers. I don’t believe that the selling of corporate shells with IPv4 assets is a black market activity, though. Unless of course that corporate shell is not the real rights-holder.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>It was these sorts of hijacks that Leslie Nobile was discussing, where a company lays claim to a dormant block by pretending to be the original rights-holder. Obviously we are all opposed to these kinds of fraud, and to every hijack.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>But it’s important to remember that the change in ownership of a company, even a shell company, is not necessarily a transfer event as RIRs know them. To an RIR a transfer is defined by the change of the Whois registration. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Community members should understand that the process of each transfer involves the relevant RIR verifying that the participants are the actual rights-holders. The seller is customarily checked and vetted as the first step in any transfer. The buyer’s connection to the recipient account is also confirmed. ARIN for example requires a notarized officer attestation from each seller as another step in the confirmation that the seller is the actual rights holder listed in Whois. Unfortunately older registrations often lack good identifying information, and these hijackers seek to take advantage of that by assuming the identity of the listed entity.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>The best way to reduce the size of the black market is to reduce the disincentives involved in processing a policy-compliant transfer.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Thanks for clarifying and sorry I over-reacted to “Mercado negro”!<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Mike<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> LACNOG [mailto:lacnog-bounces@lacnic.net] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Tomas Lynch<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, June 17, 2016 11:34 AM<br><b>To:</b> Latin America and Caribbean Region Network Operators Group <lacnog@lacnic.net><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [lacnog] riesgos de las transferencias<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Mike,<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>We are on the same page for sure. IPtrading and other companies are part of the legal IPv4 trade market, the market agreed with several RIRs. No one is putting that to question.<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Carlos and the list are discussing up to what extent the RIRs have to make more policies to regulate that market to prevent the rise of a black market that can be exploited by criminals, etc. comparing it to the Prohibition in the US.<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal>Tomás<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>2016-06-17 10:45 GMT-04:00 Carlos M. Martinez <<a href="mailto:carlosm3011@gmail.com" target="_blank">carlosm3011@gmail.com</a>>:<o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><div><p class=MsoNormal>Mike,<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>We need transfer policies so transfers can be policy compliant. We are, I believe, in the same page. Perhaps Google translate played a bad trick here, but we are saying mostly the same thing.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#888888'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#888888'>-Carlos<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Jun 17, 2016, at 11:31 AM, Mike Burns <<a href="mailto:mike@iptrading.com" target="_blank">mike@iptrading.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Hello,</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>I object to the term black market being applied to legal and policy compliant transfers, and these make up the vast bulk of transfers.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>We have completed hundreds of successful transfers for companies on every continent and I assure you they would object to being described as black market participants.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Maybe I mis-translated, if so I am sorry. </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Please call it a market, not a black market.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'>Mike</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> LACNOG [<a href="mailto:lacnog-bounces@lacnic.net" target="_blank">mailto:lacnog-bounces@lacnic.net</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Tomas Lynch<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, June 17, 2016 9:52 AM<br><b>To:</b> Latin America and Caribbean Region Network Operators Group <<a href="mailto:lacnog@lacnic.net" target="_blank">lacnog@lacnic.net</a>><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [lacnog] riesgos de las transferencias</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Carlos,<br><br>Disiento contigo al compararlo a la Ley Seca. No se pueden disparar los precios de los prefijos IPv4 o armar una "guerra" por ellos donde los RIRs tengan que imponer políticas extremas como el caso que mencionas. Acepto que exista un mercado negro de prefijos IPv4 pero, creo, que está acotado por costos (cajas NAT y NAT y NAT ...) y porque existe una solución que es IPv6. En la Ley Seca la solución que existía era completamente ilegal según la misma Ley Seca y no había otra alternativa: andá a convencer a los Kennedy que la cerveza sin alcohol es lo mismo ;)<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Como hemos discutido muchas veces, el tema de implementación de IPv6 es también un tema económico. Si un /24 y sus correspondientes NATs le cuesta al CFO más dinero que implementar el /56 que le asigna alegremente el RIR, entonces desaparece de a poco el mercado negro.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Yo dejaría que el "capitalismo salvaje" se encargue del mercado negro de IPv4.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Tomás<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>2016-06-17 8:57 GMT-04:00 Carlos M. Martinez <<a href="mailto:carlosm3011@gmail.com" target="_blank"><span style='color:purple'>carlosm3011@gmail.com</span></a>>:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal>Comparto que es un muy interesante artículo.<br><br>Razón más por la cual tenemos que seguir analizando las políticas de transferencias. Cuanto mas lugares y espacios demos para la creación de mercados negros, peor va a ser. Esos<br><br>Basta ver el desastre que es la famosa ‘guerra a las drogas’, o lo que fue en su momento la ley seca en Estados Unidos.<br><br>s2<br><span style='color:#888888'><br>Carlos</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><br><br>> On Jun 17, 2016, at 9:49 AM, Ricardo Patara <<a href="mailto:patara@registro.br" target="_blank"><span style='color:purple'>patara@registro.br</span></a>> wrote:<br>><br>><br>> "Crims set up fake companies to hoard and sell IPv4 addresses"<br>><br>> <a href="http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/06/16/ipv4_hijacking/" target="_blank"><span style='color:purple'>http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/06/16/ipv4_hijacking/</span></a><br>><br>> Muy buen articulo con base en la presentación de Leslie Nobile de ARIN en la última NANOG:<br>><br>> <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7FGChQNUtA" target="_blank"><span style='color:purple'>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7FGChQNUtA</span></a><br>><br>> Como ya comentado diversas veces, se está a crear un valor a los IPs que no es correcto.<br>><br>> La explotadores, que existen en todos sectores, ya están a ver ahí una forma de hacer dinero.<br>><br>> Más trabajo (desnecesario) para los RIRs que ahora salen a investigar empresas criminosas :(<br>><br>> Saludos<br>><br>> --<br>> Ricardo Patara<br>> _______________________________________________<br>> LACNOG mailing list<br>> <a href="mailto:LACNOG@lacnic.net" target="_blank"><span style='color:purple'>LACNOG@lacnic.net</span></a><br>> <a href="https://mail.lacnic.net/mailman/listinfo/lacnog" target="_blank"><span style='color:purple'>https://mail.lacnic.net/mailman/listinfo/lacnog</span></a><br>> Cancelar suscripcion: <a href="https://mail.lacnic.net/mailman/options/lacnog" target="_blank"><span style='color:purple'>https://mail.lacnic.net/mailman/options/lacnog</span></a><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>LACNOG mailing list<br><a href="mailto:LACNOG@lacnic.net" target="_blank"><span style='color:purple'>LACNOG@lacnic.net</span></a><br><a href="https://mail.lacnic.net/mailman/listinfo/lacnog" target="_blank"><span style='color:purple'>https://mail.lacnic.net/mailman/listinfo/lacnog</span></a><br>Cancelar suscripcion: <a href="https://mail.lacnic.net/mailman/options/lacnog" target="_blank"><span style='color:purple'>https://mail.lacnic.net/mailman/options/lacnog</span></a><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>_______________________________________________<br>LACNOG mailing list<br><a href="mailto:LACNOG@lacnic.net" target="_blank">LACNOG@lacnic.net</a><br><a href="https://mail.lacnic.net/mailman/listinfo/lacnog" target="_blank">https://mail.lacnic.net/mailman/listinfo/lacnog</a><br>Cancelar suscripcion: <a href="https://mail.lacnic.net/mailman/options/lacnog" target="_blank">https://mail.lacnic.net/mailman/options/lacnog</a></span><o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>_______________________________________________<br>LACNOG mailing list<br><a href="mailto:LACNOG@lacnic.net">LACNOG@lacnic.net</a><br><a href="https://mail.lacnic.net/mailman/listinfo/lacnog" target="_blank">https://mail.lacnic.net/mailman/listinfo/lacnog</a><br>Cancelar suscripcion: <a href="https://mail.lacnic.net/mailman/options/lacnog" target="_blank">https://mail.lacnic.net/mailman/options/lacnog</a><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div></body></html>