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--></style></head><body lang=ES link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=ES-TRAD style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>El 13/6/19 23:01, "Carlos M. Martinez" <<a href="mailto:carlosm3011@gmail.com">carlosm3011@gmail.com</a>> escribió:<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p style='margin-left:35.4pt'>Hola Jordi,<o:p></o:p></p><p style='margin-left:35.4pt'>Yo no discuto que sea deseable que el costo de la inscripción baje. De hecho, a mi presupuesto le vendría bárbaro.<o:p></o:p></p><p>Comprendido, pensé que lo rebatías !<o:p></o:p></p><p style='margin-left:35.4pt'>Lo que digo es que históricamente las registration fees han sido uno de los elementos que financian al IETF y que el PIR lo que hace es cubrir el faltante.<o:p></o:p></p><p><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Así es hasta ahora, pero creo que el LLC es una oportunidad para cambiar el balance. El PIR tiene exceso de dinero y el IETF es la mejor manera de emplearlo.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style='margin-left:35.4pt'> <o:p></o:p></p><p style='margin-left:35.4pt'>El mismo IETF ha sido reacio a recibir más ayuda del PIR/ISOC y de hecho, ahora de la mano del LLC creado en el marco de las IASA 2.0 van a buscar otros sponsors.<o:p></o:p></p><p>Creo que debemos cambiar esa reacción contraria, ahora que existe el LLC tiene sentido, porque todos los que buscamos sponsors sabemos que es algo muy difícil (yo tengo el dilema/problema de que no encuentro sponsor para el social del IETF en Madrid, y habla de cantidades ridículas comparadas con lo que cuesta patrocinar el evento de IETF). Además, creo que es poco “bueno” que sean empresas del sector las que patrocinen “mas” el IETF. No veo con buenos ojos que un Cisco o un Huawei (por poner dos ejemplos) pueden tener aun “mas” influencia, no tanto porque esa influencia sea real, sino por lo que parezca (nos guste o no “no basta con ser bueno hay que parecerlo” – supongo que se entiende el dicho).<o:p></o:p></p><p><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p style='margin-left:35.4pt'>Quizás en este último punto nosotros como comunidad podemos llegar a colaborar, tratando de buscar que organizaciones de nuestra región o al menos de nuestros ámbitos de influencia puede ser sponsor del IETF.<o:p></o:p></p><p><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Sería buenísimo, pero no se si es real. Además, podría ser bueno atar eso a que esos fondos se empleen en organizar IETFs en la región. Yo tengo identificados lugares que pueden alojarlo y así lo he comentado varias veces con el grupo que se encarga de localizar lugares para los eventos:<o:p></o:p></span></p><ul type=disc><li style='mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Buenos Aires<o:p></o:p></span></li><li style='mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Panamá<o:p></o:p></span></li><li style='mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Cancún<o:p></o:p></span></li><li style='mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Sao Paulo<o:p></o:p></span></li></ul><p><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Seguramente hay algún otro, y las barreras poco a poco irán cediendo para que ocurra.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Cuando yo hablaba en los años 2005-2007 (aprox) en los plenarios de hacer IETFs en LAC o en Africa, casi me insultaba y me tiraban piedras … y nos costo con el primero en Buenos Aires, pero salió bien y ahí esta la prueba.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style='margin-left:35.4pt'>Lo que si me parece es que solo quejarnos de algo no ayuda a que ese algo se solucione, tenemos que ser más activos en la búsqueda de esas soluciones. <o:p></o:p></p><p><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Lo dicho, yo voy a pensármelo un poco y proponer algo al LLC.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style='margin-left:35.4pt'>S2<o:p></o:p></p><p style='margin-left:35.4pt'>/Carlos<o:p></o:p></p><p style='margin-left:35.4pt'>On 13 Jun 2019, at 17:55, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via LACNOG wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #777777 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt;margin-left:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:3.75pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:35.4pt'><span lang=ES-TRAD style='font-size:12.0pt;color:#777777;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Hola Carlos,</span><span style='color:#777777'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:35.4pt'><span lang=ES-TRAD style='font-size:12.0pt;color:#777777;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'> </span><span style='color:#777777'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:35.4pt'><span lang=ES-TRAD style='font-size:12.0pt;color:#777777;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Si y no …</span><span style='color:#777777'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:35.4pt'><span lang=ES-TRAD style='font-size:12.0pt;color:#777777;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'> </span><span style='color:#777777'><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:35.4pt'><span lang=ES-TRAD style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>ISOC se hizo cargo del PIR (.org), con el objetivo principal de garantizar el soporte de IETF.</span><span style='color:#777777'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:35.4pt'><span lang=ES-TRAD style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span><span style='color:#777777'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:35.4pt'><span lang=ES-TRAD style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Y el .org, genera mucho mas dinero del que IETF necesita.</span><span style='color:#777777'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:35.4pt'><span lang=ES-TRAD style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span><span style='color:#777777'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:35.4pt'><span lang=ES-TRAD style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Creo que sería deseable que se baje mucho la cuota de participación, quizas unos 100 USD, porque los que nos lo pagamos de nuestro bolsillo, nos facilitaría mucho las cosas.</span><span style='color:#777777'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:35.4pt'><span lang=ES-TRAD style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span><span style='color:#777777'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:35.4pt'><span lang=ES-TRAD style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Cuesta tanto la cuota de registro (800 USD mas o menos), como el vuelo, según donde sea. A veces el vuelo a mi me sale mucho mas barato incluso. Me parece una exageración.</span><span style='color:#777777'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:35.4pt'><span lang=ES-TRAD style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span><span style='color:#777777'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:35.4pt'><span lang=ES-TRAD style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>No lo pondría gratuito para evitar que alguien vaya “para pegarse un viaje y curiosear”, aunque dudo que eso ocurriera mucho, excepto participantes locales, y si son pocos, no pasa nada.</span><span style='color:#777777'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:35.4pt'><span lang=ES-TRAD style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span><span style='color:#777777'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:35.4pt'><span lang=ES-TRAD style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Quizas un sistema que permita que los empleados de empresas que facturen mas de “x” millones de dolares (que son las que mas beneficio tienen de hecho, gracias a la contribución de todos al IETF), paguen incluso mas de 1.000 USD, y en cambio las instituciones sin ánimo de lucro, gobiernos o las empresas que facturen menos de esa cantidad “x”, paguen esos 100 USD.</span><span style='color:#777777'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:35.4pt'><span lang=ES-TRAD style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span><span style='color:#777777'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:35.4pt'><span lang=ES-TRAD style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>De hecho, me voy a plantear este sistema o algo parecido y se lo voy a plantear al Board del IETF LLC.</span><span style='color:#777777'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:35.4pt'><span lang=ES-TRAD style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> </span><span style='color:#777777'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:35.4pt'><span lang=ES-TRAD style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Saludos,</span><span style='color:#777777'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:35.4pt'><span lang=ES-TRAD style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Jordi</span><span style='color:#777777'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:35.4pt'><span lang=ES-TRAD style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>@jordipalet</span><span style='color:#777777'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:35.4pt'><span lang=ES-TRAD style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'> </span><span style='color:#777777'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:35.4pt'><span lang=ES-TRAD style='font-size:12.0pt;color:#777777;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'> </span><span style='color:#777777'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:35.4pt'><span lang=ES-TRAD style='font-size:12.0pt;color:#777777;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'> </span><span style='color:#777777'><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:70.8pt'><span style='color:#777777'>El 13/6/19 21:29, "LACNOG en nombre de Carlos Marcelo Martinez Cagnazzo" <<a href="mailto:lacnog-bounces@lacnic.net">lacnog-bounces@lacnic.net</a> en nombre de <a href="mailto:carlosm3011@gmail.com">carlosm3011@gmail.com</a>> escribió:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:70.8pt'><span style='color:#777777'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p style='mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:70.8pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style='color:#777777'>Y cuál sería tu propuesta Fernando? Entiendo la preocupación pero también entiendo de qué el IETF se tiene que financiar de alguna forma. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:70.8pt'><span style='color:#777777'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p style='mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:70.8pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style='color:#777777'>No digo que no puedan existir otros mecanismos, pero si creo que hay que justamente buscarlos y proponerlos. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:70.8pt'><span style='color:#777777'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p style='mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:70.8pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style='color:#777777'>S2<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:70.8pt'><span style='color:#777777'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p style='mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:70.8pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style='color:#777777'>Carlos<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:70.8pt'><span style='color:#777777'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><div id="cm_signature"><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:70.8pt'><span style='color:#777777'>via <a href="https://cloudmagic.com/k/d/mailapp?ct=pa&cv=10.0.23&pv=9&source=email_footer_2">Newton Mail</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:70.8pt'><span style='color:#787878'>On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 4:10pm, Fernando Gont <<a href="mailto:fgont@si6networks.com">fgont@si6networks.com</a>> wrote:</span><span style='color:#777777'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:70.8pt'><span style='color:#777777'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><div id=oldcontent><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p style='margin-left:70.8pt;background:white'><span style='color:#777777'>Yo plantie esta inquietud en latinoamerica, junto con otras tantas. <br><br>Nadie me dio ni pelota. <br><br>EN fin... <br><br><br>-------- Forwarded Message -------- <br>Subject: Re: ietf meeting fees <br>Date: Wed, 29 May 2019 13:45:00 -0400 <br>From: John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com> <br>To: Michael StJohns <mstjohns@comcast.net>, ietf@ietf.org <br><br><br><br>--On Tuesday, May 28, 2019 21:29 -0400 Michael StJohns <br><mstjohns@comcast.net> wrote: <br><br>> On 5/28/2019 6:49 PM, Keith Moore wrote: <br>>> On 5/28/19 4:35 PM, Michael StJohns wrote: <br>>... <br>> IMO - it's not inertia as much as reality. In the current <br>> "we don't have members" and "we don't charge for standards" <br>> model, we have three funding sources: meeting fees, sponsor <br>> contributions (both meeting and sustaining), and checks from <br>> the parents ... I mean ISOC contributions. We could <br>> become more like other standards organizations by charging for <br>> either or both of membership (student, researcher, personal, <br>> corporate etc) and copies of the standards, but I grok that <br>> either of those changes could change the fundamentals of the <br>> IETF in a way that could make us *less* viable or <br>> relevant. <br>>... <br><br>Mike, <br><br>I mostly agree, but have a different take on this, involving two <br>other pieces of the same reality. As participation costs [1] <br>rise, it becomes harder for people without enterprise (profit or <br>non-profit) support to attend f2f meetings. For those of us <br>with healthy consulting practices or significant <br>non-occupational income, retirement income, or other reserves, <br>attendance becomes a matter of personal or business priorities. <br>For people operating as individuals and closer to the edge, the <br>choice may be one of feasibility. As a personal example, I've <br>got some health issues that drive up minimum costs, but there <br>have been years when I was attending substantially all meetings <br>f2f in which the annual IETF bill came to USD 30K- 40K. Even if <br>one can get by at half or a third of that by cutting various <br>costs, we still are not talking about chump change. <br><br>It would be good to have actual numbers, although I'm not <br>confident that many of us would want to disclose the details of <br>our support situations to the community (or even the <br>Secretariat), but my strong suspicion is the percentage of <br>people actually participating as individuals -- on our own <br>wallets with no enterprise/organization support -- is dropping <br>relative to those who can depend on organizational money for <br>travel support, registration fees, and maybe even a salary while <br>at IETF or doing IETF work. To the extent that is the case, it <br>turns the model of participation by individuals into a <br>convenient myth. <br>Of course, organizations differ hugely about what, if anything, <br>people they support to participate in the IETF are expected to <br>do in return. We've seen the full spectrum from "go there, do <br>your thing, and don't pay any attention to any relationships to <br>your day job" to clear corporate policies about positions <br>employees are expected to take or avoid in the IETF, rewards for <br>particular IETF-related actions or accomplishments, and so on. <br>However, I suggest that even the potential for a company to hold <br>people accountable for what they do in the IETF makes those <br>people different from our traditional story (myth ?) about <br>individual participation. <br><br>That myth is, IMO, dangerous for at least three reasons. One is <br>that reasoning from the assumption that changing a model that <br>doesn't exist in practice would fundamentally change the IETF <br>may get in the way or clear thinking about alternatives, <br>including financial alternatives. Second, noting that <br>participating as an IESG, IAB, etc., member is even more <br>expensive than participating as an ordinary contributor, if our <br>decision bodies come to be dominated by people with strong <br>organizational support, sensitivity to cost and related issues <br>by those who actually make the decisions may be reduced. <br>Finally, many of our policies and procedures are designed around <br>the assumption of individual participation and the related <br>assumption of no coordinated organizational influence. Should <br>the IETF, as a standards developer ever get itself embroiled in <br>claims that particular standards decisions were made because of <br>undue organizational influences and that those decisions <br>distorted the market for certain products, our failure to have <br>policies and procedures in place to control that risk -- and our <br>presumed claim that we don't need them because everyone <br>participates as an individual would be more likely to fail a <br>laugh test the more unbalanced the participant profile gets. <br><br>>... <br>> So in the current model we can a) charge higher meeting fees, <br>> b) get more sponsorship, and c) ask ISOC for a bigger check. <br>> None of these wells are bottomless. We could reduce <br>> expenditures - but what would you cut? Meeting related <br>> munchies and internet? Remote access bandwidth? Staff costs? <br>> Tools support? Standards production? <br>>... <br><br>Well, I don't know how much it would help and we have built <br>systems that would cause it to take a long time for any changes <br>to show significant effects (maybe another symptom of the <br>"individual participation" myth), but we could also think about <br>some ways to cut costs and how much they would save. As <br>examples, <br>(i) Raise the threshold for creating a new WG, keeping a WG <br>going, and/or giving WGs meeting time slots, or restrict the <br>number of WGs to the point that we could reduce the number of <br>days the IETF meets and/or the number of meeting rooms needed in <br>parallel. Reducing the number of days meetings last would <br>reduce the number of hotel nights people had to pay for and <br>perhaps even the number of hotel nights for staff the IETF, <br>ISOC, etc., needed to pay for. Reducing the number of parallel <br>meeting rooms required might broaden the range of facilities we <br>could consider and thereby permit lower-cost meeting site <br>choices. <br>(ii) Consider whether, with increasing use of interim meetings, <br>we could reduce the number of all-IETF meetings from three to <br>two. This would presumably reduce annual travel, hotel, and <br>other costs for both participants and staff and might help <br>broaden participation by allowing at least some participants to <br>spend a larger fraction of the year at their day jobs. <br><br>(iii) Push back aggressively on small group meetings in parallel <br>with IETF. IIR, we used to require between three and four small <br>meeting rooms: IAB and IESG (sometimes sharing one dedicated <br>space), a work area for the Secretariat, and maybe something <br>else like the Nomcom. Anything else was required to take it <br>elsewhere or meet in ordinary hotel rooms (or rooms of members <br>of the leadership who were given complementary upgrades to <br>suites under hotel contracts); we even aggressively discouraged <br>other groups or company gatherings in the meeting hotel. I <br>gather the number of such spaces that are "required" has <br>increased very significantly. Given the complexities of hotel <br>contracts I am not sure that cutting the number back down would <br>lower costs for a given facility, but such a decrease would <br>increase the number of facilities that could be considered, <br>leaving us less at the mercy of facilities large enough to <br>accommodate our increasing needs and more able to negotiate more <br>attractive facility contracts. <br><br>I note that each of the above has been proposed in the past, at <br>least the first to the point of I-Ds proposing different <br>variations. What they have in common is that the IESG (and/or <br>IASA) have been unwilling to take them up. There are others <br>that might be worth considering although I'd predict they would <br>be even less likely to go anywhere: <br><br>(iv) Push back on IAB, IESG, or other "retreats" that require <br>additional travel, sometimes four weeks a year away from home <br>rather than three, and staff support and travel. These <br>increase costs and decrease the number and diversity of people <br>who can volunteer to serve in leadership positions. Sometimes <br>they are worth it, but the community's uncritical acceptance of <br>them as regular events may imply that we are not paying enough <br>attention to cost control (or that those will large travel and <br>expense accounts don't notice the costs or don't care). <br><br>(v) And, yes, we could attack the cookie budget by, e.g., <br>creating an extra charge for snack breaks. Given the nature of <br>hotel contracts, it is not clear how much that would save, but <br>making it negotiable would increase our ability to control costs <br>and promote competition among candidate facilities. <br><br>Those are just examples. If we were serious about cost <br>reductions, we could probably come up with others. I suggest <br>that "we" are no serious and that, in some respects, the <br>increase in remote participation has reduced the incentives to <br>control costs because someone who can't afford to travel to all <br>f2f meetings just stops doing so. However, that seems to me to <br>be reducing the diversity of the IETF's leadership, making the <br>idea of participation as individuals more or a fiction, and <br>turning the IETF more into a body where participation and <br>leadership is by large and well-funded organizations even though <br>we keep trying to hide and deny that. <br><br>>>> If you are arguing for actions that reduce or tend to reduce <br>>>> or have the potential to limit the intake of funds from <br>>>> that model, I suggest you also come up with a more than <br>>>> handwaving proposal for how to replace those funds or <br>>>> explain which functions supported by the IETF we're going <br>>>> to eliminate to cover such shortfall. <br>>> <br>>> Perhaps we should also require more than handwaving reasons <br>>> for staying the same. :-) <br>> <br>> See above - it's really just a question of who we want to be <br>> and what we're willing to pay to become that. If you can <br>> tell me who we want to be, I can help you with figuring out <br>> what it's going to cost in time, reputation, angst, etc. <br>>... <br><br>To turn this around a bit, maybe we should accept that who we <br>claim to be is getting less true even if has yet to disappear <br>entirely. If we want to be a body that matches our claims, we <br>need to figure out what we are willing to pay (in cost <br>reductions, changes in workload, and adjustments to leadership <br>and overhead structures) to get that back and retain it. I am <br>not holding my breath. <br><br>best, <br> john <br><br><br>[1] That is costs as seen by those individual participants, <br>i.e., not just the registration fee but the sum of that, plus <br>travel expenses (air, hotel, meals, visa application fees and <br>associated travel when necessary, etc.), maybe plus lost income <br>or other opportunity costs when our individual sources of income <br>or other support make that relevant. <br><br><br>_______________________________________________ <br>LACNOG mailing list <br>LACNOG@lacnic.net <br>https://mail.lacnic.net/mailman/listinfo/lacnog <br>Cancelar suscripcion: https://mail.lacnic.net/mailman/options/lacnog <o:p></o:p></span></p></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:70.8pt'><span style='color:#777777'>_______________________________________________ LACNOG mailing list LACNOG@lacnic.net https://mail.lacnic.net/mailman/listinfo/lacnog Cancelar suscripcion: https://mail.lacnic.net/mailman/options/lacnog <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:35.4pt'><span style='color:#777777'><br>**********************************************<br>IPv4 is over<br>Are you ready for the new Internet ?<br>http://www.theipv6company.com<br>The IPv6 Company<br><br>This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. 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