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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 04/02/2022 19:22, Mike Burns wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:02ce01d81a15$b1d1c620$15755260$@iptrading.com">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">Hi Fernando,
The point of this list is to educate and discuss.
I have pointed out very clearly that leasing is not a justification to
receive more ARIN addresses, you are just repeating what I said. In fact the
proposal I linked earlier describes that situation exactly.
When one side of the argument is wrong and the other side is right, winning
the argument educates the list.
That's not the point, however, and I agree with you there.
The readers of this list should go away with the knowledge that leasing RSA
addresses and receiving an ROA is something done every day and breaks no
rules for addresses registered in ARIN, RIPE, and APNIC. And that those
blocks can be used anywhere, regardless of where they are registered. </pre>
</blockquote>
Sorry, but for APNIC that remains untrue.<br>
<p>Even if it is a common practice from you knowledge, I suggest you
check it officially with APNIC in order to avoid people leasing
APNIC blocks to not get in trouble. APCNIC already said it they do
not recognize leasing as a justification not only to receive
allocations but to keep them for that usage. I will share below
part of the response that explains it well:</p>
<p>"<i>To receive resources for the purpose of “leasing” them to
other parties is not recognised under APNIC policies as an
acceptable use. Fundamental to our commitment to a global, open,
stable and secure Internet that serves the entire Asia Pacific
region, APNIC resource are delegated based on demonstrated
needs. In order to receive resources (by allocation from APNIC
or through transfer from others), the recipient must demonstrate
their need for those resources by describing the proposed use of
the resources in some specific network infrastructure which they
own or control. <b>Implicitly, the recipient could not receive
addresses for subsequent reallocation to other purposes,
because the actual use of the addresses would be unknown and
cannot be subjected to the required assessment of the need</b>.
</i><i><br>
</i><i>APNIC policies also state that if the declared use of
allocated resources changes fundamentally, then the resources
may be subject to reclamation by APNIC</i>"</p>
<p>Regards<br>
Fernando<br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:02ce01d81a15$b1d1c620$15755260$@iptrading.com">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">
Regards,
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: LACNOG <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lacnog-bounces@lacnic.net"><lacnog-bounces@lacnic.net></a> On Behalf Of Fernando Frediani
Sent: Friday, February 04, 2022 4:54 PM
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lacnog@lacnic.net">lacnog@lacnic.net</a>
Subject: Re: [lacnog] Subasignación de prefijos a otro ASN y el tema con los
RoA
As I said - as far as I know, but I am not entirely sure about it in that
case.
It has been said already on some discussions that ARIN non-legacy blocks may
not go under a revocation process if they are found to be leased, however
leasing is NOT a accepted justification to receive them from ARIN (which is
quiet obvious). For legacy blocks I am not entirely sure how it works in
regards the RIR RSAs, that's why I am not commenting on that topic
specifically.
By the way, when I go into these discussions I don't treat it as a battle to
win a trophy or something, but rather to help clarify things for people
reading it and that are committed to do things rightly be able to keep that
up with their agreements and contracts they sign.
making sure the policies and contracts that apply to each RIR keep being
respected should be the focus, not simply win the argument.
Regards
Fernando
On 04/02/2022 18:27, Mike Burns wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">Hi Rubens,
" As far as I now, unfortunately in ARIN there is not currently
impediment to lease ARIN non-legacy blocks."
Fernando just acknowledged that renting ARIN RSA space is not a
problem, yet you persist in your delusions.
Sounds like you're unwilling to share your investigation results.
If you are going to complain about them why not make them public?
I think you should concede on the legacy issue. You lost.
Regards,
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: LACNOG <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lacnog-bounces@lacnic.net"><lacnog-bounces@lacnic.net></a> On Behalf Of Rubens Kuhl
Sent: Friday, February 04, 2022 4:09 PM
To: Latin America and Caribbean Region Network Operators Group
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lacnog@lacnic.net"><lacnog@lacnic.net></a>
Subject: Re: [lacnog]
Subasignación de
prefijos a otro ASN y el tema con los RoA
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">Your pet-project investigations sound like a good idea.
Will you please reveal the results of your investigations here for
others to learn from?
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">Actually, the main focus is to file complaints with the respective
RIRs for each one found to be suspicious, knowing that most of the
time only the RIR will have all the necessary information to make a
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">determination.
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">Of course we know that many cloud providers advertise blocks
belonging to their clients, not themselves, and they advertise them
under the cloud provider's ASN. AWS, Cogent, Oracle, Vultr, etc. Not
sure how you would differentiate those from leases, but with enough
investigation you are sure to find smaller, non-cloud provider ASNs
advertising space belonging to others.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">Actually, the first false positive that came to mind was DDoS
mitigation services.
Most of them have a bad habit of advertising their customer prefixes
originating in their ASN.
I saw one case of a cloud provider advertising a client address space
once, and they changed that quickly when they knew they were in
violation of their allocation.
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">If you would agree to non-disclosure I will share an ARIN non-legacy
block being leased by a Latin American client off list as I believe I
can acquire their permission. They know they are breaking no rules
leasing ARIN RSA space.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">A non-disclosure could put me in a situation of malfeasance if I bump
into something wrong or possibly wrong and then fail to report or
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">investigate it.
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">So thanks, but no, thanks.
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">You still say non-legacy space is not safely leasable, but you can't
point
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">No, I say that it is not safely leasable wholesale. Every block will
have a different safety profile.
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">to any policy or RSA language that prevents RSA addresses from being
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">leased.
Because leasing is not the issue, how it is used is the issue. For
instance, by leasing to a network that has not been verified by the
RIR to have real need is now using those resources, now there is no
verification of such need.
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">Only in LACNIC and AFRINIC is there a risk, not that I've ever heard
of LACNIC addresses revoked for usage differing from the original
justification. Maybe you have?
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">I can only talk about generics here that most compliance processes of
ICANN, RIRs and NIRs provide opportunities for fixing a breach of
contract before it goes public. Saying more than that would violate
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">professional duty.
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">If what you say is true (that non-legacy space can't be leased),
where is it in the RSA or the NRPM of ARIN, RIPE, or APNIC?
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">Again, this will be different block by block and the point is not the
lease, but the subsequent usage by the lessee.
It is also dependent on the policy manual and RSA in force at time of
allocation.
Rubens
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</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
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</blockquote>
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