[LACNIC/Politicas] [LACNIC / Policies] New proposal LAC-2021-2 / Nova proposta LAC-2021-2 / New proposal LAC-2021-2

JORDI PALET MARTINEZ jordi.palet at consulintel.es
Tue May 11 13:29:51 -03 2021 

Hi Erik,

May be the title is not the "best" selection, I fully agree now because all the previous discussion that confused many folks.

As I just said, the problem is not having 2 (or more proposals) to resolve the same problem: that good and the community can choose which one is better, or if a combination among them, or whatever, and authors must cooperate if that's the case.

The problem is when one author has a proposal. We like it or not this test *is protected* by IP laws (checked with different lawyers). This is the reason why the RIPE NCC ask the authors to sign the agreement for granting the rights before publishing, otherwise, that will not be needed, clearly.

Then another folk in the community don't like, let's say for example 20% of that text. Then instead of trying to find consensus, decides (while the original proposal *is still under discussion*, not abandoned or anything like that), to copy the 80% of the text and submit a new proposal using that.

In RIPE, probably the chairs, even if not stated in the PDP, will not allow it, but in LACNIC we don't have that "check". And it happened already twice ...

Not having that (or an alternative way to avoid those situations, I'm not saying this proposal even less in v1 is perfect or the only possible solution), is prone to a complete blocking of the PDP, because every time some folks in the community disagree with some parts of a proposal, instead of trying to find the way for the consensus (even if that means deleting that 20%), will send a new "copy" of the original proposal.

I hope with the "context" you can better see the point.

Regards,
Jordi
@jordipalet
 
 

El 11/5/21 18:21, "Erik Bais" <erik at bais.name> escribió:

    Hi Jordi,  

    I was wondering myself as well..  however ..  

    The Title:  LAC-2021-2: Non-Competition Between Proposals 

    And in the actual proposed policy text :  

    o If two competing proposals are submitted simultaneously (prior to their publication), the LACNIC staff and the PDP chairs will attempt to coordinate with the authors how to merge both proposals. If this were not possible, only the first proposal to be received will be admitted.

    As a policy author, there is no first come first served .. if the second proposer has a better idea, better wording or is just better in putting it to paper or the audience.. the second author could get consensus where the first author fails.  

    As chair for AP-WG in the RIPE region, we try to avoid 'competing' policies, but if one isn't able to get consensus ( mostly due to either the author(s) or the way that they explain / stand on the specific text and push-back they receive) there is no other way. 
    It is most of the time confusion for the community .. people might/will mix the 2 proposals in ML responses etc.. but if the actual problem is fixed on version 2.0 of someone else.. it gets the job done. 

    If your intent is to get a similar system in LACNIC as what we do currently with the RIPE AP-WG on getting the author / proposer to waive their if any rights on the text before publication, this policy proposal makes even less sense to me. 

    How I read this is that the initial proposer can block a policy and obtains a first right of refusal to cooperate or doesn't allow someone else to propose something similar but different.. 

    I still would be strongly against said policy. 

    Regards,
    Erik Bais  



    On 11/05/2021, 17:50, "Politicas on behalf of JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via Politicas" <politicas-bounces at lacnic.net on behalf of politicas at lacnic.net> wrote:

        Hi Erick,

        I'm not sure if is because the translation, but I believe you got it wrong.

        This proposal doesn't grant rights to the author of the proposal, but in the other way around, the proposal does the SAME as RIPE NCC is doing: ensuring that the authors waive the rights over the proposal to LACNIC.

        Regards,
        Jordi
        @jordipalet



        El 11/5/21 17:43, "Erik Bais" <erik at bais.name> escribió:

            Hi,  

            This policy idea came to my attention, especially since it mentioned RIPE policy.. and retaining rights.. 
            I can't read the complete policy discussion as it is in Spanish, but I hope that I can provide some insight here. 

            My name is Erik Bais and I am currently co-chair for Address policy working group (AP-WG) in the RIPE region.  ( stating this as experience, not stating that I'm writing this on behalf of the RIPE community or as AP-WG Co-chair ) 
            I've written multiple RIPE policies, mostly around resource transfers, but also about IPv6, RPKI and other topics.  

            As an author of policy text, the RIPE community doesn't grand or the RIPE NCC doesn't grand 'RIGHTS' to the author. 
            If the author of the proposed text isn't able to obtain consensus, it is possible for someone else to restart a new proposal and see if that would get the consensus of the community. 

            It isn't common that policy proposals are written in such a way that it changes small items .. or even copied proposed text or idea's. 

            Probably one of the reasons why that is the case, is because we as co-Chairs, ask the proposers to first check with the WG (on the mailing list) to see if their idea would even work or get consensus. 

            Yes it is not uncommon that some idea is send to the mailing list .. and there is a lot of pushback .. or even a shared idea about how it could work other than the proposal / idea from the proposer ... 
            By doing such a small step, it will allow the audience / the WG, to get adjusted to the idea, provide feedback and before the initial 0.1 version is send as a policy proposal, it will already be better than just sending a proposal that was created without feedback from the community. 

            On the topic of Rights.. before publication, the proposer is asked to waive ANY rights via a text set by the legal department of the RIPE NCC. 
            The reason being is that the proposer can't limit or restrict access to the policy or contributions and that the proposer waives any economic rights or
            demand any compensation for doing any work on the policy proposal. And that any contribution can be changed or deleted in the future ... 

            The work in proposing policies in the community is unpaid and for the good of the internet and it isn't in the spirit of the RIPE community that an author / proposer will obtain or retain rights to text or policy ideas. 

            I hope that this clarifies how the RIPE community is dealing with this in PDP.  
            I would be strongly against a said suggestion to provide rights to a policy author in any RIR. 

            Regards,
            Erik Bais
            Internet citizen 





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