[LACNIC/Politicas] Los secuestros BGP constituyen una violación de las políticas - LAC-2019-5

Fri Apr 12 11:35:13 -03 2019

Hi Carlos,

Thanks for your reply, I will answer above in generalities only.
The African issue, like any analogy, is imperfect. But as a reaction of an
RIR community to something universally perceived as bad, it matches this
situation.  Nobody supports hijacking. Nobody. 

Likewise, nobody really supported a country turning off Internet access in
Africa. In both cases the RIRs sought to take action to express their
sentiments.  My argument is that the RIR has no capacity to thwart hijackers
OR countries. The RIR is not the routing police or the world police. It is
simply the wrong venue.

As to your comments about the relationship between my personal business and
my views on this matter, although ad hominem, I will address them. You are
correct in pointing out that hijacking is an evil that impacts brokers very
severely. As a network operator as well as broker, I am first in line in the
fight against spammers and hijackers. I am sure I have devoted more
resources in this fight than you are aware of.

But LACNIC is a community setup to act as steward of address regulation and
should not seek to extend its stewardship beyond its original remit. My
objection to this policy lies in that simple statement. It should not be
read as any kind of support for the bane of prefix hijacking.  I think I
have made my point clear and it has been made, no doubt more clearly, by
others in Spanish. So this will end my input and any additional confusion it
has engendered.

Regards,
Mike

Hi,
(sorry, again in english)

On Thu, 11 Apr 2019, Mike Burns wrote:

> This discussion reminds me of the AFRINIC "Anti-shutdown" proposal of
2017.
> That proposal also asked an RIR to define good and bad behavior, and deal
with it in policy.
> In that case it was the decision of an African country to shutdown
Internet access.

It is a different issue.

A government or court has the jurisdiction to decide that. When doing this
they can affect communications between inside their country to the outside,
but ordering a disconnection is not the same thing as impersonating foreign
networks.

Let's go back to the Pakistan Telecom/Google case...
The correct way of doing a ban to Google services for users within Pakistan
would have been filtering. Instead by hijacking Google's routes, the
communication between Google and networks in other countries was also
affected.

My point is:

No rule in place -- fine, we can go with hijacking or filtering to
accomplish the govt/court order.

Rule in place -- hijacking is not admissible, we need to use filtering.

Unfortunately there wasn't a rule in place, so Pakistan Telecom chose the
wrong approach :/

> In this LACNIC case, it is about prefix hijacking.

I'm yet to read from someone that hijacking (be it prefixes or ASNs) is 
something that can be tolerated.

> In the AFRINIC case, the policy was eventually withdrawn.
> I believe this is because members realized that RIRs are not the 
> appropriate place to address these sorts of issues.

The issue and aim of that proposal, as i understand it, was:

A government/court will not be allowed to determine that it's own 
population is cut off from the Internet.

So, to me, it was a jurisdiction issue. And RIR rules can't superseed 
country's laws...

On the hijacking front, the issue is different. A country can make rules 
to block access to certain networks, what it can't do is disrupting 
communications from *OTHER* countries to a foreign network (because it 
doesn't have any jurisdiction over any of the ends...)

> I think that this is also the case with the LACNIC policy under 
> discussion, and I add my voice to those who are obviously against route 
> hijacking, but who are against this policy.

It's specially intriguing for me to see people from the IP trading 
business not fighting fiercely against hijacks, because hijacks completely 
undermine the IP trading business value (and reduce the potential 
customer-base...).

We have also seen a case or two of hijackers who happen to try to join 
the IP trading business, and i would expect companies who have a long and 
good track record on this business to want hijackers (or companies doing 
hijacks) away as possible from their business sector.

Regards,
Carlos

> Regards,
> Mike Burns
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Politicas <politicas-bounces at lacnic.net> On Behalf Of Alejandro
Guzman
> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2019 11:59 AM
> To: Lista para discusion de politicas de la comunidad de LACNIC
<politicas at lacnic.net>
> Subject: Re: [LACNIC/Politicas] Los secuestros BGP constituyen una
violación de las políticas - LAC-2019-5
>
> Jordi el que varios no estemos de acuerdo con esta política no significa
que hay que irse a los extremos que dices.
>
>
>
> El jue., 11 de abril de 2019 11:52 a. m., JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via
Politicas <politicas at lacnic.net> escribió:
>
>> Comprendido, entonces tendremos que revisar todos los puntos del
>> manual de políticas que hace los mismo en otros aspectos.
>>
>>
>>
>> No podemos tener criterios diferentes para diferentes textos del manual.
>>
>>
>>
>> ¡Esto es tabú y de esto no hablamos!
>>
>>
>> Saludos,
>>
>> Jordi
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> El 11/4/19 17:46, "Arturo Servin" <arturo.servin at gmail.com> escribió:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 11, 2019 at 4:33 PM JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via Politicas <
>> politicas at lacnic.net> wrote:
>>
>> RIR y comunidad no es lo mismo.
>>
>>
>>
>> No, no son lo mismo.
>>
>>
>>
>> El RIR opera bajo los principios (politicas) que define la comunidad.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Insisto, debemos explicar porque hay cosas que creemos que en el
>> manual se deben hacer mas explicitas, para evitar diferentes puntos de
>> vista, y lo que es obvio para unos u otros, y en cambio estamos en
>> contra de poner en el manual, que es para la comunidad, algo con lo
>> que parece que todos estamos de acuerdo.
>>
>>
>>
>> Algunos creemos que hay cosas que no se deben de explicar, como que es
>> bueno y que es mal uso de un recurso.
>>
>>
>>
>> Eso lo debe definir otra comunidad, la de NOGs, de estandares
>> tecnicos, etc. No la comunidad del RIR.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> No lo veo y menos cuando hay una ristra de +1 afirmando que estamos de
>> acuerdo ?
>>
>>
>>
>> De acuerdo con:
>>
>>
>>
>> Que el RIR no es el lugar para definir que es bueno o malo.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Alguien puede argumentar que daño se produce al RIR o a la comunidad
>> explicitando algo obvio?
>>
>>
>>
>> Que no es el papel del RIR!!!
>>
>>
>>
>> Saludos
>>
>> as
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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